In this episode of The Optimal Path, host Ash Oliver welcomes Sander Viegers, VP of Design at Rabobank, to discuss the pivotal role of research and design in the digital transformation journey at Rabobank. Sander shares the principles that guide Rabobank's cooperative approach to a customer-centric design process, as well as practical examples of how research powers more innovative solutions for the customer and the business.
In this episode of The Optimal Path, host Ash Oliver welcomes Sander Viegers, VP of Design at Rabobank, to discuss the pivotal role of research and design in the digital transformation journey at Rabobank. Sander shares the principles that guide Rabobank's cooperative approach to a customer-centric design process, as well as practical examples of how research powers more innovative solutions for the customer and the business.
About Sander:
As the VP of Design at Rabobank, Sander leads the design organization in creating comprehensive customer and employee experiences on a global scale. With prior experience leading design teams at Microsoft, Amazon, and Catawiki, Sander has a proven track record of successful design leadership. He holds a Master's degree in Industrial Design Engineering from Delft University of Technology and has been named inventor on multiple patents.
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See you next time!
Ash Oliver:
Sander Viegers says that if his team were to win an award, he'd hope it would be for best supporting act. But how can teams strike a balance between being great co-pilots to innovation while also being drivers of a strategic vision?
Sander Viegers:
We have three ambitions, and one ambition is around setting direction and enlarging the strategic impact. The second ambition is to deliver better experiences today. And then we also have a third ambition, which we frame it as developing the design discipline. And when I say we want to get better at design, it's both becoming better designers, becoming better researchers, but most of all, becoming better consultants.
Ash Oliver:
According to the Future of Finance Report by Maze, 25% of consumers changed banks in 2022. Of these, over half made the switch based on the desire for a better digital experience. Today on the optimal path, we're discussing how research and design powers user centered decision making and digital transformation at Rabobank.
Welcome to The Optimal Path, a podcast about user research and product decision making. Brought to you by Mace. I'm your host, Ash Oliver. And in this podcast, you'll hear from research design and product leaders about the ideas and experiences informing decision-making across all aspects of product development.
Sander Viegers is the VP of design at Rabobank, and leads the design organization in creating comprehensive customer and employee experiences on a global scale. With prior experience leading design teams at Microsoft and Amazon, Sander has a proven track record of successful design leadership. He holds a master's degree in industrial design engineering from Delft University of Technology and has been named inventor on multiple patents. Sander, thank you so much for being here. It's exciting to have you on the show.
Sander Viegers:
Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here.
Ash Oliver:
So we're going to talk a bit about the digital transformation journey at Rabobank, how the company is using design and research to power innovation, and how you've been able to champion this over your time at the company. I am really excited to dig in. And as I was doing some research, I'm actually a customer myself of Rabobank, and I remember some of the things that stood out to me in terms of the brand and values as to why I chose it. But as I was doing the research, Rabobank is 120 6-year-old company.
Sander Viegers:
That's right.
Ash Oliver:
And is characterized by its cooperative origins pioneering. The cooperative banking model has since evolved into a global financial institution. And it seems that the bank's got a commitment to sustainability and is really embracing this digital transformation that I believe maybe underscored some of its adaptability and forward-thinking approaches, especially in the financial service sector. So knowing this, I thought maybe we could start with how you think Rabobank roots have influenced maybe a user-centric operating model?
Sander Viegers:
That's a great question. Yeah. I think the model that Rabobank started with, where basically people got together because they're trying to solve a problem that they couldn't fix alone. And I think that's the mantra. Let's figure out how we can solve this together. Back then, there was this innovative model of lending each other money instead of going to the city because people know each other, there's higher trust and lower rates, and that's innovation. And I think at the heart of the company, it's figuring out how we can solve problems together that you can't fix alone. And from that stem, a lot of innovative ideas.
Ash Oliver:
Yeah, that's really interesting. You've been with the company for some time now. Is there anything in terms of how this is translated into the design organization? Are there principles or values that you see stemming from this origin?
Sander Viegers:
Yeah, I think what drew me to Rabobank as a company and why I think it's a great place for designers to work is because of this cooperative nature. It's not very hierarchical in a sense. So if you have a good idea and you can get momentum around it and people around you to build it up and materialize it, then that's possible. And oftentimes, whenever there are design decisions to be made, products need to be compliant and secure, and also easy to use and add value. And because of the sort of cooperative culture we have, that comes through also in those discussions. So you quickly find that designers have a seat at this table, so to speak, to influence the product direction, and also in the execution to make sure that in the end, we deliver something that improves the lives of our customers.
Ash Oliver:
Yeah, I've worked at a couple large enterprise organizations maybe adjacent to the financial and banking worlds, but hearing that it's not so hierarchical seemed quite unique. Is there a way that translates into how you've structured the design organization to keep that more flat, non-hierarchical structure and ways of working?
Sander Viegers:
So what I really appreciated at some point when news people started coming in. And then after six weeks, I check in with every person, like, how are things going? And are things according to expectations? And the one thing I get back is that people are surprised with the level of autonomy they get. And to me, that's crucial. We typically don't give a design assignment, and it's more like here's a team working on product X, and they're trying to do this. And how can we help them with the design tools and methods and from a user perspective? And that is largely up to the individual. What one designer does is going to be very different from what another designer does. And I think there's a lot of value in that, and there's a lot of opportunity for growth and design impact that way.
Ash Oliver:
Yeah, I imagine that being a really invigorating and motivating kind of culture to work in, even within this large structure with a lot of variables and perhaps constraints, given the industry that you're in, you still have this autonomy, as you say, and can really take the initiative and champion projects forward, allows you to have that individualized ownership over something, which I think is something that may get lost as organizations scale, right? You become part of a larger machine and you may lose some of that flexibility and almost intrapreneurial type of spirit. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that and maybe what you've seen in terms of the comparison of working at maybe larger software organizations, as you have worked at Microsoft, for example, and the difference in maybe the banking industry.
Sander Viegers:
For me personally, there's similar cultures. I think they thrive on entrepreneurial people that can look at a product or a user group or a situation and think, okay, I have some ideas on how to approve this with new product ideas or new features or new designs, and then feel that freedom to explore that and get the momentum around it. What was different for me, which I realized once I started working at the bank, although sometimes it feels very much like a software company, there's the same roles. We have front end backend product managers, data analysts, and design and marketing, and we're all working in multidisciplinary teams, but the banking industry went through this digital transformation phase, and that's vastly different. And so sometimes it's like when you're on vacation in a different country and everything feels the same, and sometimes you run into these things, oh, I thought the world worked this way, and it works a little different.
So you have to take people along in what you're doing, and I think that's a skill we underestimate and we constantly work on also within our team. So you can do your design work. You can do the prototyping and exploration and research, but it's crucial to take people along in what you're doing and why you're doing that, and such that it doesn't become a designer task, but it's a team effort where you play a certain role. And that's a different perspective. And I think in a company that's in a digital transformation, that's probably even more important.
Ash Oliver:
I want to get to some of the communication strategies and how you're able to bring people along in this journey and almost roadshow this across the company. But before we get there, I'm wondering if you could speak to a bit more of the specifics of the digital transformation that's occurred. We've seen this across the financial services and banking industries. I'm wondering if maybe you can contextualize that into the role of design and research and how maybe this has helped to power the digital transformation that's happened at Rabobank.
Sander Viegers:
Let me start with a case study here, and maybe that helps. When I joined Rabobank, you see a lot of teams doing their absolute best. And what customers experienced, I started calling it, it's the unintentional combination of best efforts. And I realized this is where design can play a role that was new in this company. So you can create a vision or create what we borrow from the car industry, a concept car for a digital experience, and it's introducing these types of methods from the playbook of design that help create a vision that everybody can get behind. And that also shapes the way of working for the people around us, and it shapes the way the rest of the company needs to organize around to creating this one experience that we need to bring to customers. And so it's very much direction setting, what's the experience we want it to be, taking product and technology along in that journey, and be very aware of the role we play as designers and researchers, and then of course, taking it on a roadshow.
So this is what we did a few years ago initially, create this concept from the very first start involve technology and product. And then once it was done, that's when the work starts, to take the concept on a roadshow and explain what it is and what it is not and what the impact is on every and all of the other teams. So what is the impact on the savings, what's the impact on mortgages, what's the impact on insurance? And create workshops with the other teams to live through that. We did this a few years ago, and then we recently did it again with even tighter collaboration, I think, between product and technology. And I think that's where the power is. We always want to find, as designers, and be aware of not doing this great work and then ask for the applause, but actually be a great team player.
What I connected with is this notion of if we win an award, we want to be best supporting act, and I think that's a great thing to achieve and humbleness to it. And there's a role we play in doing research and taking the findings into the next iteration of the prototype and what people talk about, making that visible so we can actually have a discussion about it, and then set direction, of course. That's an incredible important role to play, but we want to be careful to say, look at the great designs we make, and now people need to follow us. That's typically in my view, not the path to successful design.
Ash Oliver:
I love that visual of receiving an award and being best supporting act. I think that's a good way of contextualizing the role and how it's able to maybe foster a tighter collaboration among teams. I want to expand on some more of the details in terms of the roadshow and what that looks like, but I'm wondering how do you strike the balance between being a supporting function and encouraging this tighter collaboration while not falling into maybe a trap of becoming some sort of fulfillment center, or something that is able to steward some more of the direction setting and influence the vision? What is the balance that you've found you've been able to strike there?
Sander Viegers:
At some point, what helped us to frame it such as to tell the team we have three ambitions, and one ambition is around setting direction and enlarging the strategic impact. These are the words we use. This is about direction setting. And to do that, you need to ask questions, call out assumptions, do research, and have conversations about what customers want and where we want to take it. And that's about direction setting. If you focus too much on that, then it becomes plans, and then the development teams are building something else. So the second ambition is deliver better experiences today. What's the experience people have today with their banking products, and how can we improve that? And these are equally important. Sometimes they refer to as design with the big D and design with the little D, or it's strategic and craft. And they need to be in balance, like you're saying. There needs to be a balance between those two.
If you focus too much on craft, then you get asked... You could call in too late. If you focus only on direction, then what customers actually experience, you don't have a grip on. And for design to fulfill its promise, you need to deliver and take responsibility for what customers see on their devices and make sure that's the best possible experience people have. And then we also have a third ambition, which we frame it as developing the design discipline. So we want to get better at those two things we just mentioned, ourselves. We also want to take people around us along in that. And when I say we want to get better at design, it's both becoming better designers, becoming better researchers, but most of all, becoming better consultants. How do we get a message across? And so we're focusing a lot on the latter lately, how to be more impactful.
I think everybody who graduated and we hired, they're good designers and researchers, no doubt. But to be impactful, that's very depending on the context and the company. So when we meet once a month, we do showcases. But the showcase is not about look at the great feature we built. The showcase is about, so we're planning to do this, and then this happened. It wasn't possible, or customers didn't understand it or whatever. And then we ran out of time. And so what's the story there. And how did we actually deliver something that met the expectations of the customers? And this is always a negotiation, and I really like the progress we're making on sharing these stories and learning from each other. And so if we take these three things, setting direction, delivering the best possible experience and developing the discipline and sharing stories about how we do that, then you slowly start creating a culture where people can constantly get better and help each other with becoming more effective in our craft.
Ash Oliver:
That is tremendous. I love that. I can imagine that your role is really about ensuring that you're delivering against those ambitions, that you're bringing the team along and figuring out how to be able to execute against these ambitions. Is there a way that you and the team measure that, the proportions and ensure that you're always keeping these three ambitions top of mind and in focus?
Sander Viegers:
At some point, we're all looking in design for what's the holy grail of the KPIs? What's the KPIs design team should use to measure progress and impact? And eventually, it's about impact, impact on the direction we're setting or impact on customer's experience, impact on what people around us learn about design. So every year, we define, okay, where are we at, and what's the most important thing to measure? This could be, for example, we can develop a training for product owners to learn about how to deliver the best user experience and how to work with design. And then we can measure how many people take this training and how to evaluate this training. That would be one way of looking at it. If we're talking about direction setting, we can look at how many conceptual prototypes that we deliver.
And were they presented at the right level at the business, we want at least do once a quarter or once half year or things like that just to make sure we have that conversation at the right level at the business. If you're talking about improving, one measure could be, do we have all the metrics in place? Do we actually know how good it is? Right? What is the [inaudible 00:16:01] score or the CSAT, or whatever score we agree on with the business that's the right one? And move that, of course, also into how do people feel about our product. And do we actually know that, and do we know that across the board? So that could be a measure. Or we've also at times where we've actually decided to measure how many frictions that we report and fix. And it's all of these things that I think we need to constantly explore. And it's like the word you use. A lot is contextual. It's very contextual. Where are we at, and what's best for the business at this point in time where we can make the most impact?
Ash Oliver:
I love that it's not just these overarching principles, these three ambitions, but these are tactical implementations as well. These are things that are constantly in an evaluation so that you can ladder up the measurement to how you're able to achieve these three big ambitions. So I love that you've gotten granular on that.
Sander Viegers:
I can elaborate on that a little bit. So we've set the ambitions, and then we set, okay, what does that mean in three years? And what are we doing this year to get there? And how do we measuring this year, the impact? And then you get into... We can call them milestones or initiatives that contribute to that. So every quarter, we can say, what are initiatives we take to get there? And then the next challenge is there can be a lot of initiatives from the design team. If they get too much focus, then that takes away attention from actual working in the multidisciplinary teams, of course. So we always want to be careful that doesn't become a goal in itself.
Ash Oliver:
Yeah, it's interesting, the big stretches of time, being able to set those goalposts, but then have in the moment understanding and planning, so to speak, of how to be able to achieve those things at this moment. So you've talked about how getting an understanding of the customer, the experience, the desires of the customer, being able to stay on the pulse of that seems integral to being able to inform these three big ambitions and what projects and initiatives are taken. Can you talk a little bit about how you see the role of research integrated into the design process and how the team might balance the continuous creation with the need for learning and a more customer centric approach to product development?
Sander Viegers:
Yeah, absolutely. The way I look at research is it's an integral part of the designing activity. The way I explain it often is first, there's an observation of course, like, okay, somebody's stuck here, or I can do this better. And then there's an idea, and then you make a sketch, right? And that's the first research because the sketch is different from what you have in your head. And then you make a second sketch. And that research with what I have imagined, does that come out in paper? And that's important because if it's on paper, I can show it to somebody else. And that's then the second level of research. So say, "Hey, I've seen people struggle with this financial insight, for example, and here's a sketch that would help people." And then I can show it to someone else, and you can get feedback from your peers.
And then at some point it's, okay, we can reach out to customers. How do they see this? And this can be co-creation or a validation study where we prototype it, do a paper prototype, or even interactive prototype. And then you go back to the drawing board, recreate it, and then you just keep iterating on it. So it's this continuous iteration, creating, validating, and observing, of course, with customers and peers. And so you want to constantly look at what's the right time to go ask customers what they want and how they perceive the product. And I think that the most interesting thing, the recent development is that we are getting better at not just asking people or observing people or doing this with prototypes, but actually see behavior in context of the real product. This is the experimentation mindset because then you don't just hear what people think or what they would do, but you can actually see the actual behaviors and the closer we can get to that is better.
And to facilitate that or to accelerate that within Rabobank, we created this concept of Rabo Lab, so we have a subset of customers that can sign up and say, "I want to be part of this experiment." It was very important to build this inside of the existing app and not ask people to download a new app or a new thing, but in the context of the banking, say, "Yes, I want to participate in new experiments." And that way, we can get a better idea of how things are perceived in the context of what you're doing. And I think the tools have tremendously improved over the last couple of years. Corona probably was a great accelerator for remote testing and doing faster, quicker typing and validation. Very excited about the ability to get quicker, closer to customers to understand what really helps.
Ash Oliver:
It's really cool to hear that you have this Rabo Labs construction within the organization, but really, it seems that a lot of the design work and what you're able to achieve comes around this idea of the first observation as you mentioned, and really keeping eyes and ears open to the customer experience. I'm wondering if there's a way that you're able to maybe keep on the pulse of that. What are the myriads of ways that you're able to have this first observation? Does it typically come in partnership with the Rabo Labs function, or is there, as you've described in the top of the episode, more of this ownership and autonomy that you've fostered across the design and research organization? Is that something that extends to the team in terms of being able to go out and conduct this kind of research with users and customers? How does that organizationally function?
Sander Viegers:
Yeah, I think that's a great question because it can be anything. And I think that is a challenge also. How do you ensure that you're constantly on top of what's happening? You have sort of your feelers out. Everything relates back to a business problem. It could be calls on a certain topic may spike, or it could be that we're losing customers for a certain product. And sometimes this is quantitative data, like, hey, what's happening here? People are more calling us. And then we know, for example, what you're calling about. There's data on that, but we don't know why they call instead of using other methods. But now, we have a real question that we don't have an answer to. And people that are not online, how do they deal with banking, for example? Then we may do site visits, or we do diary studies. And so it's all of the above.
And I think the great thing is this, that the research toolkit and methods, they're expanding. They're getting broader and broader. So it's not one replaces another completely, and they all have their own strengths. And then you need to constantly look at, what's the right tool and methods that gives you the best insights. It's tempting to wait for a business question, like, why are people calling about this, or why are we losing customers in this place or that place? But I think it's also on us to ask these questions, how do we know what's the experience of pocket money for children in this age? What do we know about this? And if we don't, what's the research we need to do to get a better sense of that?
Ash Oliver:
I love that example, and I could see how that would be really important. Especially for a financial institution that has over a century long history. There's different types of demographics that might inform different types of experiences, but it seems like there's just this cultural DNA within Rabobank that's like this signal, whether that's an internal inspired signal where you're asking a question because maybe you're not entirely sure how much information you might have on something, or if it's a signal as you described, maybe that's generated from the business. There's a spike in support tickets, for instance, that leads to the question, which then leads to the investigation, and that really is the catalyst to the rest of the design work. So it really seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it really seems that kind of investigative deep listening to understanding of customers is baked into the design process at Rabobank.
Sander Viegers:
Yeah, ideally, that's the case. Of course, there's always room to improve, and it starts with asking the questions, I think. And this goes back to the role we play and being better consultants, which is basically asking more questions until we get like we don't know. Okay, then we need to do this research.
Ash Oliver:
Have you ever found that there are obstacles and challenges to overcome in terms of advocating for this kind of learning? Have you maybe seen some of these objections? And how have you overcome those in terms of being able to continue to prioritize the learning element of the design work that takes place and showcasing the value from the research initiatives?
Sander Viegers:
Maybe you're referring to this notion that sometimes we don't have time for research, things like that, or we already know we don't need to research it, we talk to customers all the time, things like that. Of course, that happens. I just wanted to work in a multidisciplinary team and ask the questions and make sure we're not going to develop this until we have a better sense of this is actually the right feature to develop in the right way. But sometimes you need to say, "Okay, the team thinks we're good, and I think we're not. And I'm going to take a leap of faith, and we need to do this additional research. And I'm going to take some time to actually figure out what's the right thing to do." That's similarly prototyping for any sort of design initiative where you see, "Okay, I think we need to do this. And sometimes you cannot convince people until you do it, and then you need to do it initially too.
At the beginning when I started Rabobank, the comment I got a lot was like, "Who asked you to do this?" I don't know. I think it's the right thing to do. And this goes back to the autonomy. So I think a lot of design and research in our teams, they feel like sometimes you need to do this, and you don't know yet what the impact will be, with the risk of wasting time, but also with the risk of developing the wrong product or developing it in the wrong way. And that's a balance we need to take. I think we can get better at taking this risk of doing the research and doing the prototyping and exploring different ways of the problem can be solved. I was a product manager for a while. And if you have a problem as a product manager, it's very uncomfortable, with anything in life.
It can be uncomfortable to have a problem, and if there's a solution that you think this design will fix the problem, and it's good enough and we can build it next week and get it to customers in two weeks, then okay, let's do that. And then comes the designer, what do we know? How do customers perceive this solution? What's the alternative? And so that comes to this third ambition, developing the design discipline is very much telling the story. The people we hire in our team, they're very good at asking questions and exploring, and we will always explore more solutions than we can build. Even if we have found a solution, we will explore an alternative that can be more usable or quicker to develop, or et cetera. And then there is a tension between design and product, and that's a good tension to have.
We should always be careful not to quickly solve this uncomfortableness of not having a solution. I always look at, okay, but what's the alternative? And when I was a product manager, designers would come to me like, "Oh, it looks like we're shipping this, but did you think about this or that?" And it's very uncomfortable as a product manager, "Okay, and it's going to take time." Eventually, it does not take more time. Eventually, you're better informed. And eventually, you may win time because you may have a faster solution. Eventually, you may have a better product that's easier to implement. And so as much as we need to partner with business and technology, we definitely need to not be afraid to push forwards with the explorations and the research that we think needs to happen.
Ash Oliver:
There's so much there, and it's such sage advice. I want to go back a little bit to the road showing in this concept car because getting back to that angle of it. I'm wondering if there are techniques or best practices that you've uncovered that have been really successful in being able to showcase this impact or do this storytelling across the company? Could you expand on that?
Sander Viegers:
I think the biggest challenge is when you show the equivalent of a concept car is that you have to say, "This is not the plan. This is the idea. We need everyone to help us change these ideas into plans that we can execute." It really starts with there's the narrative, of course, right? We put a lot of effort also in storytelling. And every storytelling, there is a narrative of, okay, this is the situation, and it's fine until this happens. And now, we have a problem. And then here's the solution, and that needs to be a logical solution to whatever it is the problem you previously described. So there's a narrative to every storytelling. And there's nothing more powerful than video, of course. Having that firsthand experience and seeing people struggle with a design or seeing people excited about the design, nothing goes beyond that. But what I've noticed, you can change behavior or you can get people along on your story if they feel something.
So the storytelling becomes so important that you can feel this customer pain. And if you can make that happen with a video or involving people in research or showing the data how big the problem is, whatever it is, but you need to feel like, oh, wait a minute, this is a real problem. Oh, and here is a potential solution. Let's investigate that.
Ash Oliver:
I love that it seems research is really a linchpin to the storytelling. It's not that design can't be emotive, but it's almost a product of the research, right? And being able to provide that experience from research and bring people along in that journey, it not only helps connect the dots as to what you've described in terms of showing your work and how you arrived to these types of ideas or potential solutions, but it's really provided the emotional connection to the problem. This has been so interesting and inspiring. You can really see how this culture operates inside of Rabobank. I really appreciate you spending time being able to uncover some of how this is happening. I'd love to ask you a series of hat trick questions. We ask each guest just to understand a little bit more about you personally. And my first question for you is, what is one thing that you've done in your career that has helped you succeed that you think few other people do?
Sander Viegers:
I think as a designer, what really helped me is to step out of the design discipline for a while and become product manager. And more people do that. Few people do that. I would encourage more people to get into a product management role for a while to actually understand the dynamics. That made me a better designer.
Ash Oliver:
Really? Is there any one key learning that you think you've taken from your time outside of design and in product management that you think has been integral to your success?
Sander Viegers:
As a product manager, you need to make decisions, and we go with solution A or B, and typically, half the team doesn't agree with you. It's a hard job. As a design, we can say we're very empathic. Be empathic to your product managers as well. And sometimes they make a decision that's countering research or the product direction. And sometimes you have to do that. Sometimes you have to make these unpopular decisions.
Ash Oliver:
Yeah, that's great advice. And even if any designers or even researchers are hearing that, even getting closer to your product manager counterparts, I could see would be hugely beneficial. My next question for you is what is, the industry related, and of course, you can use industry related broadly here, but the industry related book that you've given or recommended the most, and why?
Sander Viegers:
I'll name two. One's book's called Flawless Consulting. This really clicked with me because you realize we're in a business of influencing. This is what I tell my team too. Once I realized we're in the business of influencing, it gave a lot of freedom to think how to fill in my role as a designer. And the second book is The Hard Thing About Hard Things, which is really about product. And then you realize, okay, from a design point of view, I influence to create products that's focused very much on usable and desirable products. From a product point of view, I didn't need to make hard decisions.
Ash Oliver:
Great recommendations. I haven't heard of Flawless Consulting before, so I'm definitely going to check that out.
Sander Viegers:
It's a little older book. Yeah, it's a while ago. The third book probably would be, people would tell me because I carried it with me all the time, was Org Design For Design Orgs. You probably know about this book. And this is one of the first books, I think, that was so helpful in figuring out how do we organize this organization.
Ash Oliver:
Yeah, definitely. And I love the application of thinking about organizational design as a design problem, so that's a great recommendation as well. My last question for you is what is an unusual habit or an absurd thing that you love?
Sander Viegers:
It's hard to think what's really unusual. I always carry paper with me. I think this goes to being able to quickly visualize, whether it's a product idea or an abstract concept or a diagram, and to be able to jot down, and then turn the paper and the pen to the person I'm speaking with. What's your version of this? And I think that's the tangibility of that paper and pen and cultivating that. I like that a lot.
Ash Oliver:
Definitely. There's something that is irreplaceable for pen and paper. I think that mind hand connection and visualizing your thinking is so powerful. I love that. I really appreciate you spending the time. It's been super insightful to be able to hear about more of the inside look at Rabobank and how research is intertwined into the design process and empowering innovation. So thank you so much for being here and doing this.
Sander Viegers:
Thank you so much for having me. It's a real joy talking with you about this.
Ash Oliver:
Thanks for listening to The Optimal Path, brought to you by Maze, the continuous product discovery platform designed for product teams. If you like what you heard today, you can find resources and companion links in the show notes. If you want to hear more or subscribe to the podcast newsletter for exclusive content, you can find The Optimal Path by visiting maze.co/podcast. And send us a note with any thoughts or feedback to podcast@maze.design. And until next time.